This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on pursuing
a career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate,
regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it
comes down to hiring, will the results of my private, instrument,
commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?

My dad who is at about the same place as me in training (he is only
doing it as recreation) keeps drilling to me that it is EXTREMELY
important to do as best as I can on these tests, because he is sure that
if I get a bad grade, then it will hurt me in the long run when it comes
time to get a job. Of course, when he took his instrument test two weeks
or so ago, he got a 100%. But then again he probably spent 15 hours a
week for 4 or 5 months studying (mildly exagerated), which I am just not
willing to do as I actually have a life. I personally haven't taken the
instrument test yet, but i got a 72 on my PAR, and when my dad found out
about my score, he (typically) threw a fit.

I personally feel that if the test results indeed do effect me in the
long run, it shouldn't. Even though I got a barely passing grade on my
private knowledge test, that doesn't;t necessarily mean I only know 72%
there needs to know about being a private pilot. If I was to retake the
test now, I guarantee I'd get at least a 90. That is to say I learned a
lot during my training, as I *did* afterall pass my checkride.

So does it really matter, or is my dad just being a over-achiever?

In article >, chris priest
> wrote:

> This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on pursuing
> a career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate,
> regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it
> comes down to hiring, will the results of my private, instrument,
> commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?

how will anyone find out? Can you prove that you got a 100 or a
72? Does the FAA provide transcripts? I couldn't find my
written test scores even if my life depended on it. All I
can prove is that I got at least the minimum (otherwise I wouldn't
have my ASEL and my instrument rating).

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, chris priest
> > wrote:
>
>> This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on pursuing
>> a career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate,
>> regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it
>> comes down to hiring, will the results of my private, instrument,
>> commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?
>
> how will anyone find out? Can you prove that you got a 100 or a
> 72? Does the FAA provide transcripts? I couldn't find my
> written test scores even if my life depended on it. All I
> can prove is that I got at least the minimum (otherwise I wouldn't
> have my ASEL and my instrument rating).
>
The score is printed on the result sheet.

CB wrote:
>
> The score is printed on the result sheet.

I expect that Bob no longer has that sheet. I'm in the same boat. I wouldn't know how
to go about finding out what I scored back then. It wouldn't surprise me to find that
the FAA keeps a record of it, but do other people have access to it?

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

chris priest wrote:

> So does it really matter, or is my dad just being a over-achiever?

I think that both you and your Dad are looking at the wrong target.
Consider: You're a pilot, true. Do you want to be the worst pilot or the
best?

No, of course the score on your written exams isn't an absolute measure of
your quality as a pilot. But why not shoot for perfection? Why not be the
best possible, even if it involves actually working hard?

Yes, you learned a lot afterwards. But that happens. Why not start from
the best position possible?

One of the CFIIs with whom I did my complex checkout and with whom I've been
working on my commercial reminded me of this in a way. He pointed out that
every landing was an opportunity to put it down precisely at my chosen
point. Every flight is an opportunity to practice planning and control.

There are plenty of opportunities where we could settle for less than our
best, but why bother?

- Andrew

Chris,
Once the rating has been obtained very few will care. At my first
interview for a flying job. They never asked. They only asked for copies
of my certificates. Your score on the written will affect how long your
oral will be, the lower the score the longer your oral. Once all of the
information for your rating makes it to the FAA it essentially
dis-appears forever. It maybe possible to get a copy of the test results
after the rating is obtained but the FAA will want to know why.
Michelle

chris priest wrote:

> This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on
> pursuing a career in aviation, whether that be in the military,
> corporate, regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor.
> Now when it comes down to hiring, will the results of my private,
> instrument, commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?
>
> My dad who is at about the same place as me in training (he is only
> doing it as recreation) keeps drilling to me that it is EXTREMELY
> important to do as best as I can on these tests, because he is sure
> that if I get a bad grade, then it will hurt me in the long run when
> it comes time to get a job. Of course, when he took his instrument
> test two weeks or so ago, he got a 100%. But then again he probably
> spent 15 hours a week for 4 or 5 months studying (mildly exagerated),
> which I am just not willing to do as I actually have a life. I
> personally haven't taken the instrument test yet, but i got a 72 on my
> PAR, and when my dad found out about my score, he (typically) threw a
> fit.
>
> I personally feel that if the test results indeed do effect me in the
> long run, it shouldn't. Even though I got a barely passing grade on my
> private knowledge test, that doesn't;t necessarily mean I only know
> 72% there needs to know about being a private pilot. If I was to
> retake the test now, I guarantee I'd get at least a 90. That is to say
> I learned a lot during my training, as I *did* afterall pass my
> checkride.
>
> So does it really matter, or is my dad just being a over-achiever?


--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

I doubt any employer will be able to obtain the scores from teh FAA,
assuming that the FAA even keeps those things.

What I would be worried about is the 72% score. True, it is a passing
score, but just barely. While not all questions on the written exam are
critical to safe flying, some of them are. You may be able to score 90%
now, but sometime between now and then you were probably flying with a
weaker than average knowledge, and that could be a cause for concern.





chris priest > wrote in
:

> This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on
pursuing
> a career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate,
> regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it
> comes down to hiring, will the results of my private, instrument,
> commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?
>
> My dad who is at about the same place as me in training (he is only
> doing it as recreation) keeps drilling to me that it is EXTREMELY
> important to do as best as I can on these tests, because he is sure
that
> if I get a bad grade, then it will hurt me in the long run when it
comes
> time to get a job. Of course, when he took his instrument test two
weeks
> or so ago, he got a 100%. But then again he probably spent 15 hours a
> week for 4 or 5 months studying (mildly exagerated), which I am just
not
> willing to do as I actually have a life. I personally haven't taken
the
> instrument test yet, but i got a 72 on my PAR, and when my dad found
out
> about my score, he (typically) threw a fit.
>
> I personally feel that if the test results indeed do effect me in the
> long run, it shouldn't. Even though I got a barely passing grade on my
> private knowledge test, that doesn't;t necessarily mean I only know
72%
> there needs to know about being a private pilot. If I was to retake
the
> test now, I guarantee I'd get at least a 90. That is to say I learned
a
> lot during my training, as I *did* afterall pass my checkride.
>
> So does it really matter, or is my dad just being a over-achiever?

FAA does keep records of your test scores and they are available, presumably
to anyone who has a need to know. I got mine from 35 years ago. It was
painless.

Rod
"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, chris priest
> > wrote:
>
> > This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on pursuing
> > a career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate,
> > regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it
> > comes down to hiring, will the results of my private, instrument,
> > commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?
>
> how will anyone find out? Can you prove that you got a 100 or a
> 72? Does the FAA provide transcripts? I couldn't find my
> written test scores even if my life depended on it. All I
> can prove is that I got at least the minimum (otherwise I wouldn't
> have my ASEL and my instrument rating).
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
> oh yeah baby.

I once invested $10 in getting a copy of my complete airman certification
record, from my first medical/student pilot certificate to my last CFI
renewal. It included my written test scores.

Having said that, I do not believe that a prospective employer or any third
party could have access to your pilot record by simply asking for it (and
paying the $10). I don't think it is worth worrying about.

Bob Gardner

"chris priest" > wrote in
message ...
> This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on pursuing
> a career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate,
> regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it
> comes down to hiring, will the results of my private, instrument,
> commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?
>
> My dad who is at about the same place as me in training (he is only
> doing it as recreation) keeps drilling to me that it is EXTREMELY
> important to do as best as I can on these tests, because he is sure that
> if I get a bad grade, then it will hurt me in the long run when it comes
> time to get a job. Of course, when he took his instrument test two weeks
> or so ago, he got a 100%. But then again he probably spent 15 hours a
> week for 4 or 5 months studying (mildly exagerated), which I am just not
> willing to do as I actually have a life. I personally haven't taken the
> instrument test yet, but i got a 72 on my PAR, and when my dad found out
> about my score, he (typically) threw a fit.
>
> I personally feel that if the test results indeed do effect me in the
> long run, it shouldn't. Even though I got a barely passing grade on my
> private knowledge test, that doesn't;t necessarily mean I only know 72%
> there needs to know about being a private pilot. If I was to retake the
> test now, I guarantee I'd get at least a 90. That is to say I learned a
> lot during my training, as I *did* afterall pass my checkride.
>
> So does it really matter, or is my dad just being a over-achiever?

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote:

> I doubt any employer will be able to obtain the scores from the FAA,

The Privacy Act of 1974 prevents FAA or any gov't agency from release
of this kind of info for the purpose here. Although, an employer can
ask you to sign a release authorizing the FAA to disclose it, or
simpler yet, ask you to get it from FAA yourself.

F--

I couldnt agree more. In my career as an instructor, I have seen a lot of
students who didnt want to study the theory and pass the written exam with
flying colors. When you add that the fact that the questions are published
already, there are few excuses for doing poorly. I hear a lot of
rationalization about how the material really doesnt apply to flying. I
dont agree.

I dont know if you fit into this category, so I am speaking based on
experience. But I've heard a lot of students tell me "I fly much better in
the air than on paper". Thats a load of BS. Typically your approach toward
things on the ground is the same as that in the air. So students have to
ask themselves if they cant bother with the ground work, do they really
bother with the *tough* airwork?

As for your situation, ask yourself honestly if maybe your dad has a point?
To him, its not about the exam grade. Its about your approach to it. If he
thought you put your all into it, he'd buy you a beer after the test no
matter what the grade.

Be that as it may, no I dont think any company really cares about the exam
scores except for the FE written or ATP written (if you dont have the rating
yet). They've never asked nor cared in any of the jobs I've had. However,
just in case, make all of your future exam grades 100% and you will have no
problems. It shows that you have learned your lesson and buckled down.

best regards-



"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
. 158...
> I doubt any employer will be able to obtain the scores from teh FAA,
> assuming that the FAA even keeps those things.
>
> What I would be worried about is the 72% score. True, it is a passing
> score, but just barely. While not all questions on the written exam are
> critical to safe flying, some of them are. You may be able to score 90%
> now, but sometime between now and then you were probably flying with a
> weaker than average knowledge, and that could be a cause for concern.
>
>
>
>
>
> chris priest > wrote in
> :
>
> > This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on
> pursuing
> > a career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate,
> > regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it
> > comes down to hiring, will the results of my private, instrument,
> > commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?
> >
> > My dad who is at about the same place as me in training (he is only
> > doing it as recreation) keeps drilling to me that it is EXTREMELY
> > important to do as best as I can on these tests, because he is sure
> that
> > if I get a bad grade, then it will hurt me in the long run when it
> comes
> > time to get a job. Of course, when he took his instrument test two
> weeks
> > or so ago, he got a 100%. But then again he probably spent 15 hours a
> > week for 4 or 5 months studying (mildly exagerated), which I am just
> not
> > willing to do as I actually have a life. I personally haven't taken
> the
> > instrument test yet, but i got a 72 on my PAR, and when my dad found
> out
> > about my score, he (typically) threw a fit.
> >
> > I personally feel that if the test results indeed do effect me in the
> > long run, it shouldn't. Even though I got a barely passing grade on my
> > private knowledge test, that doesn't;t necessarily mean I only know
> 72%
> > there needs to know about being a private pilot. If I was to retake
> the
> > test now, I guarantee I'd get at least a 90. That is to say I learned
> a
> > lot during my training, as I *did* afterall pass my checkride.
> >
> > So does it really matter, or is my dad just being a over-achiever?
>

At my airline interview (and in some of the application packages I
submitted) most asked for a signature to release these records, as well as
your criminal history, driving history, etc.....
But you do have a point.



"TaxSrv" > wrote in message
...
> "Andrew Sarangan" wrote:
>
> > I doubt any employer will be able to obtain the scores from the FAA,
>
> The Privacy Act of 1974 prevents FAA or any gov't agency from release
> of this kind of info for the purpose here. Although, an employer can
> ask you to sign a release authorizing the FAA to disclose it, or
> simpler yet, ask you to get it from FAA yourself.
>
> F--
>

Well, nobody except you will know, unless you tell them. On the other
hand - how in heck did you get such a low grade? This is a test
where all the answers to all the possible questions are published.
I got above 95 on my instrument written and I sure as heck wasn't
that good. It's just that the badly worded questions and/or poorly
worded answers were noted and remembered. Thank goodness
they are published now. Not so many years ago, none of the questions
were published. You had to read the book. The book was smaller.

Do better the next time. You will be competing against people who
really want to fly and will put in the effort to be the best. Small demand,
huge supply of pilots. It has always been so. It will never be otherwise.


>I personally feel that if the test results indeed do effect me in the
>long run, it shouldn't. Even though I got a barely passing grade on my
>private knowledge test, that doesn't;t necessarily mean I only know 72%
>there needs to know about being a private pilot. If I was to retake the
>test now, I guarantee I'd get at least a 90. That is to say I learned a
>lot during my training, as I *did* afterall pass my checkride.
>
>So does it really matter, or is my dad just being a over-achiever?

>"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message I wouldn't know how
> to go about finding out what I scored back then. It wouldn't surprise me
to
>find that the FAA keeps a record of it, but do other people have access to
it?

FAA in OKC has a copy of the results. They won't disclose it to anyone
without your written consent.

D.

>"chris priest" wrote in message > This has been on my mind for a long time
>now. I am planning on pursuing
> a career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate,
> regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it
> comes down to hiring, will the results of my private, instrument,
> commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?

Want to bet your oral examination will be significantly longer than your
dad's?
More chances to fail.

The FAA keeps a record of your knowledge test results for each test in your
permanent FAA file in OKC. When you apply to an airline (in the US), you
sign a consent form authorizing the prospective employer to have a copy of
your complete file (Pilot Records Improvement Act of 1996). Most operators
only request a certificate verification and a check for enforcement actions
in your file, but a few operators request the full file.

If the operator doesn't request the full file, you will still likely be
asked about your scores. The competition for these jobs is fierce. A score
that barely passes will signal to the interview board that you aren't
serious about your profession or that you are not trainable. All other
things being equal, the candidate with perfect scores will get the job.

Your first airline interview will require that you bring a copy of your
Airline Transport Pilot knowledge test results if you do not already have
the rating. Presenting a score of 72 to the interview board will not get you
into the simulator for part 2. It will get you on the next flight home, and
a rejection letter will soon follow.

If you are serious about rising to the top of the profession, don't be a
slacker. Forget about 'having a life'. Listen to your father. There will be
plenty of life left to live after the hard work is done.

D.

"Michelle P" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Chris,
> Once the rating has been obtained very few will care. At my first
> interview for a flying job. They never asked. They only asked for copies
> of my certificates.

>Your score on the written will affect how long your
> oral will be, the lower the score the longer your oral.

Really? What do you base that statement on?

"chris priest" > wrote in
message ...
> This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on pursuing a
> career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate, regional,
> the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it comes down to
> hiring, will the results of my private, instrument, commercial etc.
> knowledge tests come in as a factor?
>

No. The interview will tell them all they need to know about your attitude
towards work, study, etc. If you think that the quality of the work you do
does not matter, they will find out. If you are the type to pay attention to
details and who prepares well, they will find that out, too.

Okay, you sloughed off on the test and barely passed. Your dad is right to
be ticked. It displays an attitude that you think it is not important. You
may think that you would do better on it now, but that is only speculation
on your part. My advice is to be the kind of person that an employer would
find valuable, and stop trying to find excuses for poor performance in the
past.

I spent a long time contemplating your post.
I even started a very detailed response, and then deleted it, because it
seemed to me that an honest and impartial response was not what you were
truly seeking - so I'll just say this.
I truly believe that the rewards you get out of this will roughly equal
the effort that you put in. Just don't tell the interviewer that you
will not put in xyz because you actually have a life - because, believe
it or not, so does everyone else!
Most employers, particularly in your field seek excellence, but you may
get lucky and find one that is satisfied with mediocrity.
Otherwise - do you have a second career choice?


Tony
P.S. I'm not trying to **** you off - I'm trying to wake you up!

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE



In article >,
chris priest > wrote:

> This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on pursuing
> a career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate,
> regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it
> comes down to hiring, will the results of my private, instrument,
> commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?
>
> My dad who is at about the same place as me in training (he is only
> doing it as recreation) keeps drilling to me that it is EXTREMELY
> important to do as best as I can on these tests, because he is sure that
> if I get a bad grade, then it will hurt me in the long run when it comes
> time to get a job. Of course, when he took his instrument test two weeks
> or so ago, he got a 100%. But then again he probably spent 15 hours a
> week for 4 or 5 months studying (mildly exagerated), which I am just not
> willing to do as I actually have a life. I personally haven't taken the
> instrument test yet, but i got a 72 on my PAR, and when my dad found out
> about my score, he (typically) threw a fit.
>
> I personally feel that if the test results indeed do effect me in the
> long run, it shouldn't. Even though I got a barely passing grade on my
> private knowledge test, that doesn't;t necessarily mean I only know 72%
> there needs to know about being a private pilot. If I was to retake the
> test now, I guarantee I'd get at least a 90. That is to say I learned a
> lot during my training, as I *did* afterall pass my checkride.
>
> So does it really matter, or is my dad just being a over-achiever?

Back in the late 70's, when I started sending out airline applications, I
remember only one airline (United) that asked about the score results on the
FEX exam. I was glad to see that, as I had scored 100 %. I ended up getting
a job with another airline,
which didn't seem to care about the results (although during the interview,
we were given a similar exam).

I wouldn't think that knowledge test results are that important today,
given that the test questions are available to the applicant beforehand.
Many exam guides (King, ATC, etc.) seem to prepare you for the test. Back in
the early 70's , you read your "Zweng" manual from cover to cover, learned
something in the process, and then took your "written exam". Cheers
"chris priest" > wrote in
message ...
> This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on pursuing a
> career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate, regional,
> the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it comes down to
> hiring, will the results of my private, instrument, commercial etc.
> knowledge tests come in as a factor?
>
> My dad who is at about the same place as me in training (he is only doing
> it as recreation) keeps drilling to me that it is EXTREMELY important to
> do as best as I can on these tests, because he is sure that if I get a bad
> grade, then it will hurt me in the long run when it comes time to get a
> job. Of course, when he took his instrument test two weeks or so ago, he
> got a 100%. But then again he probably spent 15 hours a week for 4 or 5
> months studying (mildly exagerated), which I am just not willing to do as
> I actually have a life. I personally haven't taken the instrument test
> yet, but i got a 72 on my PAR, and when my dad found out about my score,
> he (typically) threw a fit.
>
> I personally feel that if the test results indeed do effect me in the long
> run, it shouldn't. Even though I got a barely passing grade on my private
> knowledge test, that doesn't;t necessarily mean I only know 72% there
> needs to know about being a private pilot. If I was to retake the test
> now, I guarantee I'd get at least a 90. That is to say I learned a lot
> during my training, as I *did* afterall pass my checkride.
>
> So does it really matter, or is my dad just being a over-achiever?

Recently, chris priest" <"cp3[remove-this-part]68202
> posted:
(largely snipped for brevity)
>
> This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on
> pursuing a career in aviation, whether that be in the military,
> corporate, regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor.
> Now when it comes down to hiring, will the results of my private,
> instrument, commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?
>
If you're career-oriented, then how would it serve you to perform at lower
levels than you might be capable of achieving? This is more of an issue of
attitude, and while the actual score on written exams might not ever come
to light, that attitude is likely to affect your performance and thus your
viablility as a professional in whatever field you choose. Bad habits are
very hard to overcome. What kind of pilot would you rather trust your life
to; the overachiever, or the underachiever? It's a no-brainer question for
me to answer!

Neil

chris priest > wrote in message >...
> This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on pursuing
> a career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate,
> regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it
> comes down to hiring, will the results of my private, instrument,
> commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?

Study just enough to barely make it. Then worry about making it.
Sounds like a good plan to me.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

tony roberts wrote:
> I spent a long time contemplating your post.
> I even started a very detailed response, and then deleted it, because it
> seemed to me that an honest and impartial response was not what you were
> truly seeking - so I'll just say this.
> I truly believe that the rewards you get out of this will roughly equal
> the effort that you put in. Just don't tell the interviewer that you
> will not put in xyz because you actually have a life - because, believe
> it or not, so does everyone else!
> Most employers, particularly in your field seek excellence, but you may
> get lucky and find one that is satisfied with mediocrity.
> Otherwise - do you have a second career choice?
>
>
> Tony
> P.S. I'm not trying to **** you off - I'm trying to wake you up!
>

It just seems silly to me to have to spend all of that time studying
just to get a perfect score, when you can spend 80% less time studying
and still pass, giving you the same result. My summer job currently is
basically being a janitor at a RV park. My job is to pick up trash,
clean the bathrooms, sweep the floors; stuff like that. The biggest
thing I dislike about this job is how they instructed me to clean the
bathrooms. I have to spray the toilet bowl with chemical #5, then
chemical #7, then after a few minutes, I have to scrub the inside of the
bowl with brush #1 soaked in bleach. The the outside of the toilet with
brush #2 in bleach. After that I have to wipe it down with a wet rag,
then with a dry rag. Then I have to do it all over again to the rest of
the toilets. After this whole process the toilets have the exact same
appearance they did before I started. It just seems like I spent all
that effort for nothing. I could have achieved the same effect with a 30
second spray-n-wipe then be done with.

I sort of feel the same when I study for these knowledge tests. I don't
see any reason to go all out when a 70 is all thats required. Thats not
to say only 70% of all there is to know is only worth having.

I don't see the written exam tests as the SAT. To me the only point of
taking the test is to pass. The grade is irrelevant. Heck, when I took
my PAR, I remember skipping questions because I just didn't want to do
them. They were mostly those calculating problems that use the E6B which
I knew how to do, I just didn't see the point in laboring over the
problem, when i could have as easily skipped it. I must have did this a
lot, as you all know I came close to not passing. Now, mind you, if I
was in the air, I would have done the calculation without second
thought. It's all about putting the effort where it belongs.

Looking back, I probably had too much confidence. I'm part 141, and
during ground school I never got below a 85 on all of my tests, so I
have no doubt in my mind that I was going to pass that test. When I take
my instrument knowledge test sometime in the next week, I'll most likely
use a slightly diffrent approach, but I'm still not going in there with
a 100% as my goal. My goal will be to pass.

Is it really important to concentrate on a perfect on-center smooth
landing every time, or to just focus on landing each flight safely?

I am sorry for saying this, but you have to change your attitude toward
flying before something serious happens. You are showing all the classic
signs of hazardous attitudes (described in detail in the Aviation
Instructor's Handbook).

I am not familiar with the cleaning example, but if someone had gone
through the effort of establishing a procedure for it, then there is
usually a good reason behind it. You can't toss everything out just because
it 'seems' to be a waste of time. I am not saying that you should not
question the procedures, but before you question the procedures you must
thoroughly investigate the pros and cons of those procedures and come up
with an alternative.

Coming back to flying, if one of my students came with an excuse as yours,
I would ask them to do the exam again, or find another instructor for their
training. The low score is one issue, but arguing that it is a waste of
time to score higher is a more serious issue. If you think that you will
not take a similar attitude in the cockpit, I don't believe it. The
attitude towards being a safe pilot does not begin in the cockpit; it
permeates all parts of ones life.

Before you question what exam scores have to do with safety, safety is not
just about manipulating the yoke and rudder. It is about making informed
decisions on the ground and in the air. Written exams are an indication of
how much information you know, and how willing you are to learn them.

As for skipping questions because you are confident of passing the test,
this too displays an attitude towards taking shortcuts. It might be
worthwhile for you to read about risk management. There are plenty of
aviation publications that deal with this subject.






chris priest > wrote in
:

> tony roberts wrote:
>> I spent a long time contemplating your post.
>> I even started a very detailed response, and then deleted it, because
>> it seemed to me that an honest and impartial response was not what
>> you were truly seeking - so I'll just say this.
>> I truly believe that the rewards you get out of this will roughly
>> equal the effort that you put in. Just don't tell the interviewer
>> that you will not put in xyz because you actually have a life -
>> because, believe it or not, so does everyone else!
>> Most employers, particularly in your field seek excellence, but you
>> may get lucky and find one that is satisfied with mediocrity.
>> Otherwise - do you have a second career choice?
>>
>>
>> Tony
>> P.S. I'm not trying to **** you off - I'm trying to wake you up!
>>
>
> It just seems silly to me to have to spend all of that time studying
> just to get a perfect score, when you can spend 80% less time studying
> and still pass, giving you the same result. My summer job currently is
> basically being a janitor at a RV park. My job is to pick up trash,
> clean the bathrooms, sweep the floors; stuff like that. The biggest
> thing I dislike about this job is how they instructed me to clean the
> bathrooms. I have to spray the toilet bowl with chemical #5, then
> chemical #7, then after a few minutes, I have to scrub the inside of
> the bowl with brush #1 soaked in bleach. The the outside of the toilet
> with brush #2 in bleach. After that I have to wipe it down with a wet
> rag, then with a dry rag. Then I have to do it all over again to the
> rest of the toilets. After this whole process the toilets have the
> exact same appearance they did before I started. It just seems like I
> spent all that effort for nothing. I could have achieved the same
> effect with a 30 second spray-n-wipe then be done with.
>
> I sort of feel the same when I study for these knowledge tests. I
> don't see any reason to go all out when a 70 is all thats required.
> Thats not to say only 70% of all there is to know is only worth
> having.
>
> I don't see the written exam tests as the SAT. To me the only point of
> taking the test is to pass. The grade is irrelevant. Heck, when I took
> my PAR, I remember skipping questions because I just didn't want to do
> them. They were mostly those calculating problems that use the E6B
> which I knew how to do, I just didn't see the point in laboring over
> the problem, when i could have as easily skipped it. I must have did
> this a lot, as you all know I came close to not passing. Now, mind
> you, if I was in the air, I would have done the calculation without
> second thought. It's all about putting the effort where it belongs.
>
> Looking back, I probably had too much confidence. I'm part 141, and
> during ground school I never got below a 85 on all of my tests, so I
> have no doubt in my mind that I was going to pass that test. When I
> take my instrument knowledge test sometime in the next week, I'll most
> likely use a slightly diffrent approach, but I'm still not going in
> there with a 100% as my goal. My goal will be to pass.
>
> Is it really important to concentrate on a perfect on-center smooth
> landing every time, or to just focus on landing each flight safely?

chris priest wrote:
> I don't see the written exam tests as the SAT. To me the only point of
> taking the test is to pass. The grade is irrelevant. Heck, when I took
> my PAR, I remember skipping questions because I just didn't want to do
> them. They were mostly those calculating problems that use the E6B which
> I knew how to do, I just didn't see the point in laboring over the
> problem, when i could have as easily skipped it. I must have did this a
> lot, as you all know I came close to not passing. Now, mind you, if I
> was in the air, I would have done the calculation without second
> thought. It's all about putting the effort where it belongs.

Now we know where the problem lies.
It's you attitude.
You don't understand how skipping one little item can affect the outcome
of your flight.
Have you ever heard the saying, "An accident is a string of broken links
in a chain of events. Stop the breaks at the earliest possile
opportunity and the accident will be prevented."
There are so many scenarios I could present based on what you have
written that I don't know where to begin.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> As for skipping questions because you are confident of passing the test,
> this too displays an attitude towards taking shortcuts. It might be
> worthwhile for you to read about risk management.

I understand there are things you can risk, and then there are things
you just can't risk. When you are on final approach, you just *can not*
skip those final checklist items. On the flip side, when you are doing a
cross country, you *can* afford to skip writing down your time en route
between checkpoints in your flight log if you are preoccupied with your
VOR receiver failing. I felt like I could afford to skip certain
questions on my test and not have it negatively effect (meaning fail)
the test.

Risk management is all about *managing* risks, not avoiding any sort of
situation imaginable that may in some slight way have a negative effect.
There are tons of things experienced pilots do that could in some way
negatively effect safety of a flight, such as neglecting a micrology
while dealing with an emergency. These are unavoidable and they happen
all the time. The difference between a good pilot and a bad one is that
pilot's ability to deal with these situations, and what they choose to
omit, and not omit.

I didn't go in there and skip every question, as that would have been
poor risk management. I only skipped those questions which I knew would
not effect my ultimate goal which is, and always has been passing. When
I did the SAT, I did not skip any questions because that would have
lowered my score and the goal there is to get the best score you can.
The FAA knowledge tests are not the SAT.

Now on the other hand, if the grade is something that could come back to
haunt me come time to get a job, then I would say what I did was wrong.
That was the whole point of this thread. Will the grade effect me? If so
then I'll try to get a 100 next time. If it doesn't, then I won't sweat
it. Either way I'm going to pass the test and begin my training aloft
where I'll cement the things the things in my mind that I didn't already
know. Isn't that the whole point in doing the oral part of the checkride?

chris priest wrote:
>
> On the flip side, when you are doing a
> cross country, you *can* afford to skip writing down your time en route
> between checkpoints in your flight log if you are preoccupied with your
> VOR receiver failing.

Actually, if your VOR appears to be in the process of going TU, it's *more* important
that you have accurate times recorded. You're likely to be reduced to pure pilotage
soon, and if you don't know how long ago you passed your last waypoint, that's going
to be more difficult (and perhaps impossible).

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

>
> chris priest wrote:
>
>>On the flip side, when you are doing a
>>cross country, you *can* afford to skip writing down your time en route
>>between checkpoints in your flight log if you are preoccupied with your
>>VOR receiver failing.
>
>
> Actually, if your VOR appears to be in the process of going TU, it's *more* important
> that you have accurate times recorded. You're likely to be reduced to pure pilotage
> soon, and if you don't know how long ago you passed your last waypoint, that's going
> to be more difficult (and perhaps impossible).
>
> George Patterson
> If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
> he gives it to.

Sorry, that was just a quick and dirty example. Lets then assume this
pilot's plane has GPS equipped.

You said: "which I knew would not effect my ultimate goal which is, and
always has been passing".

That's not much of a goal, if you ask me, although it is becoming a far too
prevalent one.

You would be much better served if you used a test as a means of insuring
that you do in fact know everything you were taught and everything you
should know.

From your post, I get the impression that you are only doing the least you
can to get by. And please don't try to argue the value of that point. I
could give you hundreds of examples from my life where you might think I did
the least I could to get by. I once woke up at 3:00 on a Saturday morning to
the dripping sound of a leaky sewer pipe. How did I solve it? I called a
plumber. But not at 3:00 on a Saturday morning. Instead, I put a few turns
of duct tape around the pipe; from other sources of knowledge I knew that
would hold for several days. Then I called the plumber at 7:30 on Monday
morning. This was not a matter of doing the least necessary, it was a matter
of using the least only to temporarily delay doing a proper repair.

In much of life, doing the least required doesn't get you anywhere faster,
and it may insure that you don't get there at all.





"chris priest" > wrote in
message ...
> Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
> > As for skipping questions because you are confident of passing the test,
> > this too displays an attitude towards taking shortcuts. It might be
> > worthwhile for you to read about risk management.
>
> I understand there are things you can risk, and then there are things
> you just can't risk. When you are on final approach, you just *can not*
> skip those final checklist items. On the flip side, when you are doing a
> cross country, you *can* afford to skip writing down your time en route
> between checkpoints in your flight log if you are preoccupied with your
> VOR receiver failing. I felt like I could afford to skip certain
> questions on my test and not have it negatively effect (meaning fail)
> the test.
>
> Risk management is all about *managing* risks, not avoiding any sort of
> situation imaginable that may in some slight way have a negative effect.
> There are tons of things experienced pilots do that could in some way
> negatively effect safety of a flight, such as neglecting a micrology
> while dealing with an emergency. These are unavoidable and they happen
> all the time. The difference between a good pilot and a bad one is that
> pilot's ability to deal with these situations, and what they choose to
> omit, and not omit.
>
> I didn't go in there and skip every question, as that would have been
> poor risk management. I only skipped those questions which I knew would
> not effect my ultimate goal which is, and always has been passing. When
> I did the SAT, I did not skip any questions because that would have
> lowered my score and the goal there is to get the best score you can.
> The FAA knowledge tests are not the SAT.
>
> Now on the other hand, if the grade is something that could come back to
> haunt me come time to get a job, then I would say what I did was wrong.
> That was the whole point of this thread. Will the grade effect me? If so
> then I'll try to get a 100 next time. If it doesn't, then I won't sweat
> it. Either way I'm going to pass the test and begin my training aloft
> where I'll cement the things the things in my mind that I didn't already
> know. Isn't that the whole point in doing the oral part of the checkride?

It doesn't matter if the plane is equipped with the almighty hand of God, if
it goes belly up and it is your sole electronic navigation source, you're
reduced to pilotage.

I think a bit more book-time would serve you well...


"chris priest" > wrote in
message ...
> G.R. Patterson III wrote:
>
> >
> > chris priest wrote:
> >
> >>On the flip side, when you are doing a
> >>cross country, you *can* afford to skip writing down your time en route
> >>between checkpoints in your flight log if you are preoccupied with your
> >>VOR receiver failing.
> >
> >
> > Actually, if your VOR appears to be in the process of going TU, it's
*more* important
> > that you have accurate times recorded. You're likely to be reduced to
pure pilotage
> > soon, and if you don't know how long ago you passed your last waypoint,
that's going
> > to be more difficult (and perhaps impossible).
> >
> > George Patterson
> > If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
> > he gives it to.
>
> Sorry, that was just a quick and dirty example. Lets then assume this
> pilot's plane has GPS equipped.

chris priest > wrote in
:

> Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
>> As for skipping questions because you are confident of passing the
>> test, this too displays an attitude towards taking shortcuts. It
>> might be worthwhile for you to read about risk management.
>
> I understand there are things you can risk, and then there are things
> you just can't risk. When you are on final approach, you just *can
> not* skip those final checklist items. On the flip side, when you are
> doing a cross country, you *can* afford to skip writing down your time
> en route between checkpoints in your flight log if you are preoccupied
> with your VOR receiver failing. I felt like I could afford to skip
> certain questions on my test and not have it negatively effect
> (meaning fail) the test.
>
> Risk management is all about *managing* risks, not avoiding any sort
> of situation imaginable that may in some slight way have a negative
> effect. There are tons of things experienced pilots do that could in
> some way negatively effect safety of a flight, such as neglecting a
> micrology while dealing with an emergency. These are unavoidable and
> they happen all the time. The difference between a good pilot and a
> bad one is that pilot's ability to deal with these situations, and
> what they choose to omit, and not omit.

Risk management is about being aware of and assessing all risk elements and
taking the best course of action. Not studying hard enough, or being lazy
is not generally considered a risk element. If you don't have the time or
motivation to do your best on the written exam, you really need to
reconsider if aviation is going to work for you.

Recently, chris priest" <"cp3[remove-this-part]68202
> posted:

> G.R. Patterson III wrote:
>
>>
>> chris priest wrote:
>>
>>> On the flip side, when you are doing a
>>> cross country, you *can* afford to skip writing down your time en
>>> route between checkpoints in your flight log if you are preoccupied
>>> with your VOR receiver failing.
>>
>>
>> Actually, if your VOR appears to be in the process of going TU, it's
>> *more* important that you have accurate times recorded. You're
>> likely to be reduced to pure pilotage soon, and if you don't know
>> how long ago you passed your last waypoint, that's going to be more
>> difficult (and perhaps impossible).
>>
>> George Patterson
>> If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the
>> people he gives it to.
>
> Sorry, that was just a quick and dirty example. Lets then assume this
> pilot's plane has GPS equipped.
>
And, you think that makes matters different somehow?

Look. Let's make it simpler. Your arguments amount to saying that the
knowledge test information is optional. That's a preposterous notion, and
an indication that you really should spend more time studying than arguing
here.

The point isn't to score well, it's to master the information critical to
flying an aircraft. Guess what happens when you do that? You'll score well
on the test, too. And, if you don't master the critical information, it's
not likely that you'll turn out to be much of a pilot, much less a career
pilot.

So, just make up your mind as to where you want to be.

Neil

Neil Gould wrote:

>
> The point isn't to score well, it's to master the information critical to
> flying an aircraft. Guess what happens when you do that? You'll score well
> on the test, too. And, if you don't master the critical information, it's
> not likely that you'll turn out to be much of a pilot, much less a career
> pilot.

Yeah and it's absolutely critical that you understand which way the
compass initially swings when starting a turn. So much of the
knoweledge test is pure crap.

chris priest wrote:

> Is it really important to concentrate on a perfect on-center smooth
> landing every time, or to just focus on landing each flight safely?

A consistently positive attitude is needed, because there are more
aspects to doing a job well day in and day out than you may suspect. Do
the best you can every time. You can be sure that there will be plenty
of times when that isn't as good as you might like it to be. Sometimes
getting it on the ground safely will be all you can do, and you want the
threshold for those times to be VERY high -- as high as you can make it.

At your stage in life you really don't know enough to decide what is
good enough, whether it's cleaning toilets or flying airplanes, which is
why you are working for someone else. That's normal. The fact that you
have devoted paragraphs here to justifying your lackadaisical attitude
tells me the odds may not be in your favor. Do your best and you will
move forward. Otherwise cleaning toilets may be as far as you ever get.


Jack

Chris,
From your description of your ground work, it shouldn't take all that much
effort to study toward a score in the 90's so that you (and your father)
can come away proud of your score. Instead, it sounds like you are taking
efforts to ensure that you score the lowest score possible without failing,
just so your dad can't be proud of you.

The risk there, of course, is that unless you actually know 100% of the
right answers, you might make a mistake and end up failing after all. Now
THAT is a TOTAL waste of time and money!

As far as landing on the centerline every time - on a 150' wide runway, it
probably is not very critical. But if you were landing on a narrow runway,
it might be more important. And if you let yourself get sloppy on the 150'
wide runway because it didn't matter, you might get into a world of trouble
when you found yourself on a 40' wide runway with other objects along the
sides... If instead you consistently landed on the center line, after a few
hundred landings it might not be so hard anymore, and you'd do it without
much effort every time - so that if you got to a narrow and short runway,
you could focus on the other, more critical novelties...

The same thing even goes for toilet bowl cleaning. While I'm no expert, I
would agree that the first time you cleaned the toilets inside and out with
a dishrag and some spray soap, it might not make much difference. But after
a few weeks, the toilets would no longer look the way they do now - between
destroying the porcelain with soap that is too harsh, and spreading the
germs and bacteria from the inside to the outside. And the cost of
replacing all of the toilets or of losing customers because the toilets are
gross would be much higher than spending a few extra minutes every day
cleaning the toilets correctly...


The cost of getting good grades and studying properly for your flight
training will payoff later - even if you don't realize it. Be mature enough
to recognize that the easy way out is usually not the best...



chris priest > wrote in
:

> It just seems silly to me to have to spend all of that time studying
> just to get a perfect score, when you can spend 80% less time studying
> and still pass, giving you the same result. My summer job currently is
> basically being a janitor at a RV park. My job is to pick up trash,
> clean the bathrooms, sweep the floors; stuff like that. The biggest
> thing I dislike about this job is how they instructed me to clean the
> bathrooms. I have to spray the toilet bowl with chemical #5, then
> chemical #7, then after a few minutes, I have to scrub the inside of
> the bowl with brush #1 soaked in bleach. The the outside of the toilet
> with brush #2 in bleach. After that I have to wipe it down with a wet
> rag, then with a dry rag. Then I have to do it all over again to the
> rest of the toilets. After this whole process the toilets have the
> exact same appearance they did before I started. It just seems like I
> spent all that effort for nothing. I could have achieved the same
> effect with a 30 second spray-n-wipe then be done with.
>
> I sort of feel the same when I study for these knowledge tests. I don't
> see any reason to go all out when a 70 is all thats required. Thats not
> to say only 70% of all there is to know is only worth having.
>
> I don't see the written exam tests as the SAT. To me the only point of
> taking the test is to pass. The grade is irrelevant. Heck, when I took
> my PAR, I remember skipping questions because I just didn't want to do
> them. They were mostly those calculating problems that use the E6B
> which I knew how to do, I just didn't see the point in laboring over
> the problem, when i could have as easily skipped it. I must have did
> this a lot, as you all know I came close to not passing. Now, mind you,
> if I was in the air, I would have done the calculation without second
> thought. It's all about putting the effort where it belongs.
>
> Looking back, I probably had too much confidence. I'm part 141, and
> during ground school I never got below a 85 on all of my tests, so I
> have no doubt in my mind that I was going to pass that test. When I
> take my instrument knowledge test sometime in the next week, I'll most
> likely use a slightly diffrent approach, but I'm still not going in
> there with a 100% as my goal. My goal will be to pass.
>
> Is it really important to concentrate on a perfect on-center smooth
> landing every time, or to just focus on landing each flight safely?

You failed to perform proper risk management.

You failed to properly asses the benefit of saving a few minutes by
skipping a few questions with the risk that you may have just blown your
chances at a serious aviation career by passing by the skin of your teeth.

Fortunately for you, it turns out that your omission may not actually cost
you an aviation career, but since you didn't know it at the time, it was
undoubtedly bad judgement...


chris priest > wrote in
:

> Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
>> As for skipping questions because you are confident of passing the
>> test, this too displays an attitude towards taking shortcuts. It might
>> be worthwhile for you to read about risk management.
>
> I understand there are things you can risk, and then there are things
> you just can't risk. When you are on final approach, you just *can not*
> skip those final checklist items. On the flip side, when you are doing
> a cross country, you *can* afford to skip writing down your time en
> route between checkpoints in your flight log if you are preoccupied
> with your VOR receiver failing. I felt like I could afford to skip
> certain questions on my test and not have it negatively effect (meaning
> fail) the test.
>
> Risk management is all about *managing* risks, not avoiding any sort of
> situation imaginable that may in some slight way have a negative
> effect. There are tons of things experienced pilots do that could in
> some way negatively effect safety of a flight, such as neglecting a
> micrology while dealing with an emergency. These are unavoidable and
> they happen all the time. The difference between a good pilot and a bad
> one is that pilot's ability to deal with these situations, and what
> they choose to omit, and not omit.
>
> I didn't go in there and skip every question, as that would have been
> poor risk management. I only skipped those questions which I knew would
> not effect my ultimate goal which is, and always has been passing. When
> I did the SAT, I did not skip any questions because that would have
> lowered my score and the goal there is to get the best score you can.
> The FAA knowledge tests are not the SAT.
>
> Now on the other hand, if the grade is something that could come back
> to haunt me come time to get a job, then I would say what I did was
> wrong. That was the whole point of this thread. Will the grade effect
> me? If so then I'll try to get a 100 next time. If it doesn't, then I
> won't sweat it. Either way I'm going to pass the test and begin my
> training aloft where I'll cement the things the things in my mind that
> I didn't already know. Isn't that the whole point in doing the oral
> part of the checkride?

chris priest > wrote:

<snip>

>Looking back, I probably had too much confidence. I'm part 141, and
>during ground school I never got below a 85 on all of my tests, so I
>have no doubt in my mind that I was going to pass that test. When I take
>my instrument knowledge test sometime in the next week, I'll most likely
>use a slightly diffrent approach, but I'm still not going in there with
>a 100% as my goal. My goal will be to pass.
>
>Is it really important to concentrate on a perfect on-center smooth
>landing every time, or to just focus on landing each flight safely?

LOL! You had me going before this post. Hopefully anyone leaning
toward the position you parody will learn something from this
exchange!
--
Alex
Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.

If you want to fare well during a no-gyro approach in IMC in a plane that
has no GPS, yeah probably.


Newps > wrote in
:

>
>
> Neil Gould wrote:
>
>>
>> The point isn't to score well, it's to master the information critical
>> to flying an aircraft. Guess what happens when you do that? You'll
>> score well on the test, too. And, if you don't master the critical
>> information, it's not likely that you'll turn out to be much of a
>> pilot, much less a career pilot.
>
> Yeah and it's absolutely critical that you understand which way the
> compass initially swings when starting a turn. So much of the
> knoweledge test is pure crap.
>

Newps > wrote in
:

>
>
> Neil Gould wrote:
>
>>
>> The point isn't to score well, it's to master the information
>> critical to flying an aircraft. Guess what happens when you do that?
>> You'll score well on the test, too. And, if you don't master the
>> critical information, it's not likely that you'll turn out to be much
>> of a pilot, much less a career pilot.
>
> Yeah and it's absolutely critical that you understand which way the
> compass initially swings when starting a turn. So much of the
> knoweledge test is pure crap.
>

Not all questions may be useful for flying, but I wouldn't necessarily call
it pure crap. In my instructing career I have seen a strong correlation
between flying skills and test scores. This is not because the written test
is a good indicator of aviation knowledge, but because the students who
strive to score high also strive do perform well in all aspects of flying.

chris priest > wrote in message >...

> So does it really matter, or is my dad just being a over-achiever?

You already know the answer. That voice that nagged you into posting
here is your moral compass. It's a pretty old-fashioned instrument and
a lot of people say it's obsolete, but you'll find it works well when
everything else fails.

> I personally feel that if the test results indeed do effect me in the
> long run, it shouldn't.

As you get older you'll find that there's few things the world suffers
less gladly than an "A" student who makes excuses for "C" performance.

Based on the attitude you've displayed here, I wouldn't want you
anywhere near my business.

Best,
-cwk.

"C Kingsbury" > wrote > Based on the attitude you've
displayed here, I wouldn't want you
> anywhere near my business.
>
> Best,
> -cwk.

----Troll alert----

Can't everyone see? This is so stupid, I sure hope it is a joke.

I give a written safety test to my carpentry students. They are given it
repeatedly, if necessary, until they get every question right. If they miss
a question, who knows it that will be the bit of information they needed to
avoid cutting a finger off. I see a strong correlation to a written test
about flying and being safe.
--
Jim in NC (covering my butt)

Judah > wrote in message >...

> If you want to fare well during a no-gyro approach in IMC in a plane that
> has no GPS, yeah probably.
>

Actually, in my 172 the only rule about the compass that's any use is,
"if the plane is in anything other than straight-and-level, the
compass is lying."

Let's be fair. The OP is a bratty, whiny kid who needs to improve his
attitude towards book-larnin' in general, but the written test isn't
all that great a device either. Glad I learned how to read a 2-needle
RMI, I see those all the time. Of course, no suggestion at all how to
use a handheld GPS to your benefit in the event of a vacuum failure
(possible) or electrical failure (likely) in the soup. Here we have a
incredibly useful tool that every pilot can afford, and yet there's a
wall of silence about its use because it's not approved.

On the Garmin 195 I've seen, it will show you the key parts of the
instrument approach, but it won't automatically slew the view to
heading-up because they want to discourage you from using it to fly
the approach. And the new nice Lowrance units I read won't show a
simulated glideslope on an instrument approach, even though they're
WAAS-equipped and so ought to be moderately accurate. OK, it's not
approved and the database may not be current, but when my electrical
system s&@!s the bed in actual, I'll be glad to know that the system
is set up to protect Garmin's ass instead of mine.

Anyway!

Best,
-cwk.

Personal experience and statements by several DPE's.

Richard Hertz wrote:

>"Michelle P" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
>
>>Chris,
>>Once the rating has been obtained very few will care. At my first
>>interview for a flying job. They never asked. They only asked for copies
>>of my certificates.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Your score on the written will affect how long your
>>oral will be, the lower the score the longer your oral.
>>
>>
>
>Really? What do you base that statement on?
>
>
>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:21:04 -0400, chris priest
> wrote:

>My summer job currently is
>basically being a janitor at a RV park. My job is to pick up trash,
>clean the bathrooms, sweep the floors; stuff like that. The biggest
>thing I dislike about this job is how they instructed me to clean the
>bathrooms. I have to spray the toilet bowl with chemical #5, then
>chemical #7, then after a few minutes, I have to scrub the inside of the
>bowl with brush #1 soaked in bleach. The the outside of the toilet with
>brush #2 in bleach. After that I have to wipe it down with a wet rag,
>then with a dry rag. Then I have to do it all over again to the rest of
>the toilets. After this whole process the toilets have the exact same
>appearance they did before I started. It just seems like I spent all
>that effort for nothing. I could have achieved the same effect with a 30
>second spray-n-wipe then be done with.

Oooohhhh, bad example Chris. The reason you were told to use the
various chemicals, along with bleach and two different brushes and the
wet and dry rags is because you are doing more than just making the
toilets look alike, you are killing germs. Test after test after test
have all come back with the same result, there are germs in public
restrooms and patrons can pick them up there. Your job is to kill
them, not make the toilets look the same.

Even though just barely passing the written still means passing it,
most pilot wannabees want to do better than barely adaquate.

Corky Scott

There's a bad smell here, could it be a Troll I wonder?
"chris priest" > wrote in
message ...
> tony roberts wrote:
> > I spent a long time contemplating your post.
> > I even started a very detailed response, and then deleted it, because it
> > seemed to me that an honest and impartial response was not what you were
> > truly seeking - so I'll just say this.
> > I truly believe that the rewards you get out of this will roughly equal
> > the effort that you put in. Just don't tell the interviewer that you
> > will not put in xyz because you actually have a life - because, believe
> > it or not, so does everyone else!
> > Most employers, particularly in your field seek excellence, but you may
> > get lucky and find one that is satisfied with mediocrity.
> > Otherwise - do you have a second career choice?
> >
> >
> > Tony
> > P.S. I'm not trying to **** you off - I'm trying to wake you up!
> >
>
> It just seems silly to me to have to spend all of that time studying
> just to get a perfect score, when you can spend 80% less time studying
> and still pass, giving you the same result. My summer job currently is
> basically being a janitor at a RV park. My job is to pick up trash,
> clean the bathrooms, sweep the floors; stuff like that. The biggest
> thing I dislike about this job is how they instructed me to clean the
> bathrooms. I have to spray the toilet bowl with chemical #5, then
> chemical #7, then after a few minutes, I have to scrub the inside of the
> bowl with brush #1 soaked in bleach. The the outside of the toilet with
> brush #2 in bleach. After that I have to wipe it down with a wet rag,
> then with a dry rag. Then I have to do it all over again to the rest of
> the toilets. After this whole process the toilets have the exact same
> appearance they did before I started. It just seems like I spent all
> that effort for nothing. I could have achieved the same effect with a 30
> second spray-n-wipe then be done with.
>
> I sort of feel the same when I study for these knowledge tests. I don't
> see any reason to go all out when a 70 is all thats required. Thats not
> to say only 70% of all there is to know is only worth having.
>
> I don't see the written exam tests as the SAT. To me the only point of
> taking the test is to pass. The grade is irrelevant. Heck, when I took
> my PAR, I remember skipping questions because I just didn't want to do
> them. They were mostly those calculating problems that use the E6B which
> I knew how to do, I just didn't see the point in laboring over the
> problem, when i could have as easily skipped it. I must have did this a
> lot, as you all know I came close to not passing. Now, mind you, if I
> was in the air, I would have done the calculation without second
> thought. It's all about putting the effort where it belongs.
>
> Looking back, I probably had too much confidence. I'm part 141, and
> during ground school I never got below a 85 on all of my tests, so I
> have no doubt in my mind that I was going to pass that test. When I take
> my instrument knowledge test sometime in the next week, I'll most likely
> use a slightly diffrent approach, but I'm still not going in there with
> a 100% as my goal. My goal will be to pass.
>
> Is it really important to concentrate on a perfect on-center smooth
> landing every time, or to just focus on landing each flight safely?

I don't think it matters what you scored on your tests so long as you passed
them without a whole bunch of retries.

For example, you could take a weekend course where you're guaranteed to pass
or you get your money back (you take the test on Sunday afternoon, right
there in the hotel conference room/classroom) and you'll do really well. A
week later, you'll remember half of it. Or, you could take a term-long
course at a community college or university that teaches you well, and you
might not do so well on your score but you're more likely to retain that
which you have learned.

If you failed your checkride half a dozen times, it'll appear in your
logbook, and you may have to explain yourself, but I'm not aware of any
situation where an interviewer will say "Well, you only scored 73% on your
private knowledge exam which you took 15 years and 500 hours ago when you
were 17, so I'm afraid we can't hire you."

-c


"chris priest" > wrote in
message ...
> This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on pursuing
> a career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate,
> regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it
> comes down to hiring, will the results of my private, instrument,
> commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?
>
> My dad who is at about the same place as me in training (he is only
> doing it as recreation) keeps drilling to me that it is EXTREMELY
> important to do as best as I can on these tests, because he is sure that
> if I get a bad grade, then it will hurt me in the long run when it comes
> time to get a job. Of course, when he took his instrument test two weeks
> or so ago, he got a 100%. But then again he probably spent 15 hours a
> week for 4 or 5 months studying (mildly exagerated), which I am just not
> willing to do as I actually have a life. I personally haven't taken the
> instrument test yet, but i got a 72 on my PAR, and when my dad found out
> about my score, he (typically) threw a fit.
>
> I personally feel that if the test results indeed do effect me in the
> long run, it shouldn't. Even though I got a barely passing grade on my
> private knowledge test, that doesn't;t necessarily mean I only know 72%
> there needs to know about being a private pilot. If I was to retake the
> test now, I guarantee I'd get at least a 90. That is to say I learned a
> lot during my training, as I *did* afterall pass my checkride.
>
> So does it really matter, or is my dad just being a over-achiever?

Andrew Gideon > wrote
> No, of course the score on your written exams isn't an absolute measure of
> your quality as a pilot. But why not shoot for perfection? Why not be the
> best possible, even if it involves actually working hard?

Because you could be working hard on something that actually matters.

FAA written tests contain a huge amount of worthless drivel. Why
bother studying that, when you could be learning about weather, the
systems in your airplane, or something else that could actually help
you.

I used to go with your approach. I would get the book, study hard,
and never score less than 95. On my last written (the ATP) I
realized, about halfway through, that I was wasting time. After I
took this test, I would never care about rest periods for supplemental
carriers, how many landings you could substitute for hours before you
could use published mins, or how many hours your dispatch was good for
if you were a flag carrier ever again. And then I realized how much
useless FAA trivia I was carrying in my head from all the other tests
I took, and how much more of it I had forgotten. And so I walked in,
took the test, and scored my lowest ever. But I passed.

If FAA written tests were actually well-designed and not full of trick
questions and useless trivia, I would feel differently. And if my
plane had turbines, it would burn kerosene. When it comes to
preparing for your oral and flight test, do your best. Learn to fly
to the privileges of the certificate, not just to pass a test. Learn
what you need to fly, not to convince a DE to give you a ticket. But
when it comes to the written, do the minimum and save your effort for
where it matters. Nobody cares about your score on the written.

The FAA does keep those results, and they will release those numbers
if you authorize it. If the people doing the hiring really wanted to
know how you did, they would have you sign a release form and get them
from the FAA. But they never do.

Michael

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:24:49 -0400, chris priest
> wrote:

snipped
>I didn't go in there and skip every question, as that would have been
>poor risk management. I only skipped those questions which I knew would
>not effect my ultimate goal which is, and always has been passing. When
>I did the SAT, I did not skip any questions because that would have
>lowered my score and the goal there is to get the best score you can.
>The FAA knowledge tests are not the SAT.
>
>Now on the other hand, if the grade is something that could come back to
>haunt me come time to get a job, then I would say what I did was wrong.
>That was the whole point of this thread. Will the grade effect me? If so
>then I'll try to get a 100 next time. If it doesn't, then I won't sweat
>it. Either way I'm going to pass the test and begin my training aloft
>where I'll cement the things the things in my mind that I didn't already
>know. Isn't that the whole point in doing the oral part of the checkride?

The goal of passing of a pretty low goal. Most of the folks I know go
in with a goal of acing the test. Most didn't achieve that, but
that's largely irrelevant. In the flying arena, striving for
perfection is a good thing.

At first I thought this was a serious post, but it's sounding more and
more like a troll (I hope).
Rich Russell

>"Corky Scott" wrote in message > The reason you were told to use the
> various chemicals, along with bleach and two different brushes and the
> wet and dry rags is because you are doing more than just making the
> toilets look alike, you are killing germs.

Perhaps the camp director noticed a slacker amongst the workers and directed
that slacker to mix the ammonia with the bleach. Figured he wouldn't be
using those brain cells anyway.

D.

In article >, chris priest wrote:
> Is it really important to concentrate on a perfect on-center smooth
> landing every time, or to just focus on landing each flight safely?

Yes, it is really important to concentrate on that perfect on-centre
smooth landing (even if it's inevitable you won't always get it). If you
are practised at trying to reach perfection, the day the conditions are
difficult you're much more likely to make a safe landing instead of
rolling the plane into a ball.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

> Is it really important to concentrate on a perfect on-center smooth
> landing every time, or to just focus on landing each flight safely?

I land on short runways, in very high density altitude, that are 25 feet
wide (sometimes with a ditch down the runway edge). So - answer your own
question. Any fool can land off centre when the runway is 125 ft wide -
when it's 25 ft wide - well, that takes a bit more precision.

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

"chris priest" > wrote in
message ...
> This has been on my mind for a long time now. I am planning on pursuing
> a career in aviation, whether that be in the military, corporate,
> regional, the airlines, or possibly as just an instructor. Now when it
> comes down to hiring, will the results of my private, instrument,
> commercial etc. knowledge tests come in as a factor?
>
> My dad who is at about the same place as me in training (he is only
> doing it as recreation) keeps drilling to me that it is EXTREMELY
> important to do as best as I can on these tests, because he is sure that
> if I get a bad grade, then it will hurt me in the long run when it comes
> time to get a job. Of course, when he took his instrument test two weeks
> or so ago, he got a 100%. But then again he probably spent 15 hours a
> week for 4 or 5 months studying (mildly exagerated), which I am just not
> willing to do as I actually have a life. I personally haven't taken the
> instrument test yet, but i got a 72 on my PAR, and when my dad found out
> about my score, he (typically) threw a fit.
>
> I personally feel that if the test results indeed do effect me in the
> long run, it shouldn't. Even though I got a barely passing grade on my
> private knowledge test, that doesn't;t necessarily mean I only know 72%
> there needs to know about being a private pilot. If I was to retake the
> test now, I guarantee I'd get at least a 90. That is to say I learned a
> lot during my training, as I *did* afterall pass my checkride.
>
> So does it really matter, or is my dad just being a over-achiever?


This thread reminds me of one very similar almost word for word about a year
ago.

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
>
> "chris priest" > wrote in
> message ...
> > [...]
>
> This thread reminds me of one very similar almost word for word about a
> year
> ago.

Check your newsreader. There's no new thread. You're looking at this one
(from just a few months ago):
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.aviation.piloting/msg/ec9ab0e1d7ec7cab?dmode=source